Rocking Real Estate! Interview with Dj Jones & Joel Pack
Musicians Dj Jones and Joel Pack share their transition into real estate, focusing on a service-first philosophy that prioritizes client education over sales tactics.
Dj Jones & Joel Pack
Realtors and Musicians
At a Glance
Archive Scoring
Introduction
The journey from the recording studio to the closing table is not as wide a gap as one might think. Joel Pack and Dj Jones, both lifelong musicians, have built a top-tier real estate team by leaning into the communication and networking skills forged in the arts. Their approach is defined by what they call a 'salesperson allergy'—a commitment to being advisors rather than pushy salesmen. This philosophy stems from personal 'bad experiences' with real estate in their past, driving them to create a sanctuary for clients who feel intimidated by the traditional industry grind.
Throughout their dialogue, there is a recurring theme of the 'forced savings account.' They view homeownership not as a speculative gamble like cryptocurrency, but as a long-term anchor for financial and emotional stability. They emphasize that while the market's headlines often scream about a falling sky, the reality for most homeowners is a return to a healthy, pre-pandemic normalcy. Their perspective is particularly valuable for those looking to understand real estate as a component of a well-lived life rather than just a transaction.
Community involvement acts as the heartbeat of their business model. By donating to the International Rescue Community (IRC) and local food banks, Dj and Joel demonstrate that the success of a real estate transaction can have a ripple effect far beyond the buyer and seller. They share moving stories of Ukrainian-born team members helping refugees find footing in Utah, showcasing the industry's potential for profound humanitarian impact.
For the first-time buyer, this episode serves as an emotional guide through 'Great Recession PTSD.' Dj and Joel address the fear that many millennials carry from 2008, helping them distinguish between a healthy market correction and a total collapse. They argue that the right time to buy is rarely dictated by the federal interest rate alone, but by the specific needs of an individual's life—whether that is a divorce, a relocation, or a growing family.
Ultimately, the conversation is an invitation to view real estate through a creative lens. Whether they are filming 80s-inspired music videos for marketing or talking a friend out of selling a high-equity property, Dj and Joel represent a new wave of realtors who value the 'vibe' of the relationship as much as the data on the contract. It is a refreshing look at how authenticity and professional expertise can coexist to help people find their way home.
Episode Overview
A detailed look at the topics, people, and context of this conversation.
In this episode, host Ryan Harding sits down with Dj Jones and Joel Pack of Pack Jones & Associates, a top-performing team at Berkshire Hathaway. With backgrounds in classical voice and rock music recording, Dj and Joel bring a unique, non-traditional energy to the real estate world. They discuss their decade of collective experience and how their creative roots allow them to speak a different language with clients who might otherwise be skeptical of the sales industry.
The discussion covers the practicalities of a shifting 2022 real estate market, moving away from the 'unicorn years' of 2020-2021 toward a more sustainable pace. They offer specific advice for first-time homebuyers, sellers navigating life changes like divorce, and those interested in the complexities of new construction. The team also highlights the work of their colleague Marianna, who operates in St. George, emphasizing their reach across Utah.
Beyond the numbers, the episode explores the team's commitment to philanthropy, specifically their support for refugee families through the International Rescue Community and their annual client appreciation events. The conversation is peppered with musical references, highlighting how they stay 'top of mind' with their sphere of influence by producing monthly music videos that bridge the gap between entertainment and industry expertise.
Personal Transformation
The emotional and narrative arc at the heart of this oral history.
Dj Jones and Joel Pack exemplify the transition from the creative arts to professional advisory roles. Joel moved from a career as a signed musician and recording studio owner into real estate after experiencing substandard service in both industries, while Dj leveraged his classical voice education and networking skills. Their transformation highlights a shift from viewing real estate as a transactional sales job to an service-oriented advisory profession, where they use their backgrounds to bridge the gap for clients who are typically 'allergic' to traditional salespeople.
Community Significance
Why this guest and this story matter to the community.
This story is significant because it provides a blueprint for how professional expertise and creative passion can merge to benefit a local community. By focusing on the 'music community' and those skeptical of corporate sales tactics, Jones and Pack demonstrate that effective homeownership guidance must be rooted in cultural competence and shared identity. Their approach fosters trust in the real estate process for demographics that might otherwise remain renters due to a lack of relatable guidance.
Furthermore, the team's commitment to the International Rescue Community (IRC) and local food banks illustrates the role realtors play as community anchors. Their work matching down payments for refugee families creates a direct pathway for marginalized groups to establish roots, proving that the success of a real estate team can be measured through social impact rather than just sales volume. This teaches future buyers that choosing an agent with a strong ethical and charitable compass can turn a private purchase into a community-building act.
"I thought hey maybe i can help help some of the under serviced clients i mean even especially in the music community sure who maybe some people who are allergic to salespeople or allergic to real estate industry sales people"
— Joel Pack · 1:55
Key Themes & Life Lessons
The ideas that run beneath the stories — and what they teach about community, leadership, and belonging.
Transition from Music to Real Estate
Relationship-Based Sales Philosophy
First-Time Homebuyer Advocacy
Market Normalization and Psychology
Real Estate as a Long-term Investment
Community and Charitable Impact
Wisdom & Life Lessons
A major lesson is the concept of 'commission breath'—the palpable desperation for a sale that often leads to bad advice. Buyers are taught to seek advisors who remain 'curious' about the client's goals rather than focused on a specific outcome. This ensures that the professional relationship is built on genuine advocacy rather than a desire for a paycheck.
Another key takeaway is the 'history rhymes' perspective on interest rates and market cycles. By comparing the 2022 market to 2018-2019, the guests provide a calming perspective on volatility. They teach that discomfort during a purchase is often a sign of a significant life investment that will pay off in equity and security years down the road, as long as the buyer does not exceed their financial limits.
Key Takeaways
- 1The 2020-2021 real estate market was an outlier; current trends mirror the stable growth seen between 2016-2019.
- 2Real estate agents with a 'salesperson allergy' focus on education and long-term advice over quick commissions.
- 3For first-time buyers, real estate acts as a 'forced savings account' that builds equity even during market leveling.
- 4Interest rates in the 4-6% range are historically average, despite being higher than the record lows of the pandemic era.
- 5Sellers must price homes realistically to attract multiple offers in a market where inventory stays active longer.
- 6Investing in the community through charities like the International Rescue Committee builds deeper client trust.
Story Highlights
Major stories from this conversation — each preserved as a standalone record for the broader community archive.
Joel Pack describes how he spent his entire college savings on a recording session that turned out to be a terrible experience. This frustration became the catalyst for him to start Rigby Road Studios in Salt Lake City, with the mission of providing the local rock music community with a high-quality, professional environment that he felt was missing in Utah at the time.
Emotional Significance
It represents a moment of deep disappointment and financial loss that fueled an entrepreneurial drive to protect others from the same fate.
Why This Matters
It establishes Joel's foundation as someone who prioritizes client experience over simple transactions.
Life Lesson
Negative experiences can be the foundation for positive innovation if you use them to identify and fill a gap in service.
Transformation
Joel transformed from a frustrated, young musician who lost his savings into a business owner and community pillar for local artists.
What It Reveals About Dj Jones & Joel Pack
Joel is motivated by a sense of justice and a desire to improve under-serviced industries.
What It Reveals About the Community
The broader Utah community rewards entrepreneurs who take a 'do it yourself' approach to improving local culture.
Community Value Preserved
The value of supporting local creative talent through infrastructure and professional mentorship.
For future generations: It demonstrates how the local music scene in Salt Lake City was built by individuals who took personal financial risks to support their peers.
Joel explains his transition into real estate, which was sparked by his own polarizing experiences—some great and some terrible—buying and selling homes. He realized that the music community, which is often 'allergic' to traditional salespeople, needed a representative who could speak their language and offer a low-pressure, advisory-based approach rather than a hard sell.
Dj Jones shares his unconventional path into real estate. He holds a degree in classical voice and music education and intended to become a high school choir teacher. However, he realized he lacked the passion for the school system and instead loved the personal networking and relationship-building aspects of being a musician. While studying for the LSAT, a mentor convinced him to try real estate, where he could use his networking skills to help people on a personal level.
Joel recounts a conversation with a friend going through a divorce who was unsure whether to sell the family home or buy out his ex-wife's equity. Joel reflects on his own divorce 20 years prior, where he lost tens of thousands of dollars because he didn't have a trusted advisor to guide him. He uses this personal trauma as motivation to provide the friend with clear scenarios and data so he can make an informed decision for his life.
Dj shares a story where he talked a friend out of selling their home. The friend was relocating for work to the Midwest. Dj ran the numbers and showed them that the home in Utah would rent for so much more than the mortgage that the cash flow would essentially pay for a much larger house in Mississippi. This advice favored the client's long-term wealth over Dj's immediate commission from a sale.
The team discusses their work with the International Rescue Committee (IRC). They recall a specific transaction where they were on the listing side, and the buyers were a refugee family supported by the IRC, which matches down payments. The sellers were thrilled to be part of a story that helped a family fleeing hardship find a permanent home and 'roots' in their new community.
Dj talks about his love for working with first-time homebuyers. While many agents find them difficult because they are often anxious during inspections, Dj enjoys being the person to talk them 'off the ledge.' He explains the immense satisfaction of handing over the keys to someone who was initially terrified but, two years later, has tens of thousands of dollars in equity and a sense of security they never had before.
"first time home buyers... need to look at this as a long-term investment not what's the market going to do in the next six months."
— Joel Pack · 11:06
Historical Preservation & Legacy
What this interview preserves about community history, cultural legacy, and intergenerational knowledge.
Preservation Value: High
This episode is a high-value record of the market transition following the COVID-19 housing boom. It offers unique insights into the intersection of creative industries and financial services, providing actionable advice for first-time buyers while documenting a specific era of Utah's economic history.
Why This Episode Matters Historically
Historically, this episode documents the 'great normalization' of 2022, capturing the psychological and financial transition as the extreme market outliers of 2020-2021 began to fade. It provides a primary source account of how professionals coached buyers through the 'recession PTSD' that many millennials carried into a high-interest-rate environment, offering a rare look at real-time market sentiment during a period of significant economic adjustment. It also preserves a specific moment in the Utah housing market where prices stabilized in the $400,000 to $600,000 range. The discussion of interest rates moving from 3% back to the historic 'norms' of 5-6% serves as a valuable record for future economists and homeowners looking to understand the resilience of the housing market in the face of rapid monetary policy changes.
What Future Generations May Learn
Future generations will learn the importance of seeing a home as a 'forced savings account' and a long-term life anchor rather than a speculative asset. The interview emphasizes that while market cycles are inevitable, the decision to buy should be driven by life changes—such as family needs or geographical shifts—rather than trying to perfectly time the market. This wisdom helps future buyers avoid the paralysis that comes with over-analyzing economic trends. Additionally, the episode teaches the value of the 'advisory' relationship in high-stakes financial transactions. Future homebuyers can see that a successful journey often involves an agent who is willing to talk a client 'out' of a sale if it doesn't align with their life goals. This prioritization of client well-being over immediate commissions serves as a timeless lesson in professional ethics and long-term financial planning.
Community Memory Preserved
The episode preserves the memory of the Pack Jones team’s local activism, specifically their support for the Utah chapter of the International Rescue Committee (IRC) and their efforts to integrate refugee families into the local housing market. It also captures the unique fusion of the Salt Lake City music scene with the professional real estate industry, documenting how local culture influences business practices.
Local Knowledge Preserved
Detailed market observations from the Salt Lake and Provo areas are documented, specifically regarding the shift from 2021's extreme appreciation to a more 'normal' hot market. It preserves knowledge of how multiple offers remained a reality in the $400k-$600k price range even as interest rates rose, and it highlights the strategic importance of pricing homes accurately to avoid stagnation.
Intergenerational Lessons
This conversation bridges the gap between younger 'gig economy' creatives (like musicians) and the traditional world of wealth-building. It shows that professional success does not require abandoning one's creative roots and that homeownership is an attainable and necessary goal for all professions, provided they have the right education and guidance.
Community & Cultural Insights
The episode reveals a Utah real estate culture that is increasingly defined by social responsibility and niche community representation. It highlights a growing trend of realtors using their platforms to fund social causes, such as food security and refugee resettlement, reflecting a community value system that prioritizes collective stability alongside individual homeownership.
Historical Context
The discussion places the 2022 real estate market within the context of the post-pandemic housing boom. During 2020 and 2021, the market experienced unprecedented 28% appreciation, which created high expectations for sellers and 'PTSD' for buyers who remembered the 2008 Great Recession. The guests argue that the current cooling is not a crash but a return to the healthy, fast-paced markets of 2017 and 2018. Additionally, the episode touches on the evolution of real estate forms and legalities, noting that the paperwork required for a transaction has grown significantly in complexity over the last decade, necessitating constant agent education to protect clients.
Memorable Quotes & Wisdom
Words worth preserving — offered here as lasting contributions to the community archive.
"I thought hey maybe i can help help some of the under serviced clients i mean even especially in the music community sure who maybe some people who are allergic to salespeople or allergic to real estate industry sales people"
— Joel Pack
1:55
Relevant for creative professionals who may feel alienated by traditional corporate sales tactics.
Highlights the importance of niche representation and finding a realtor who speaks the language of a specific community.
"our team philosophy is more like hey we're here to actually help people we're not here to sell people"
— Dj Jones
4:12
Addresses the common skepticism towards real estate professionals within the local community.
Redefines the realtor's role from a salesperson to a consultant, which is crucial for building long-term trust in real estate.
"we're dealing with these huge transactions possibly the most important transaction for most people and the biggest transaction in most people's lifetimes so we take that very seriously"
— Dj Jones
6:20
Directly addresses the buyer journey and the weight of the decision to move from renting to owning.
Acknowledges the emotional and financial gravity of homeownership for the average person.
"you're not going to where the puck is you're trying to go to where the puck's going to be and if you're if we're not up on market trends and and the forms... we can kind of help them better understand that"
— Dj Jones
8:03
Encourages buyers to stay informed to make better strategic decisions in a volatile market.
Stresses the importance of market education and proactive planning in a changing economy.
"2020 and 2021 were just total outliers like they were the hottest market i think we've probably ever seen... 28 appreciation is not normal."
— Dj Jones
9:08
Helps potential buyers manage expectations regarding appreciation and market speed.
Provides context for the current market 'slowdown' by explaining that the previous years were anomalies, not the baseline.
"first time home buyers... need to look at this as a long-term investment not what's the market going to do in the next six months."
— Joel Pack
11:06
Essential advice for renters who are hesitant to enter the market due to short-term fluctuations.
Reframes homeownership as a lifestyle and long-term financial move rather than a short-term speculative play.
"every time i've kind of made that scary leap into buying a home and it wasn't it felt a little bit uncomfortable it's like a year later two years later three years later i'm always like man am i glad i didn't wait"
— Joel Pack
11:54
Validates the 'scary leap' that most first-time buyers feel.
Addresses the universal fear of entering the market and the subsequent relief of building equity.
"Interest rates... they're in the low fives like that's still below the historic average... your payment's gonna be a little bit more than it would have been two years ago but that's payment it's like a forced savings account"
— Dj Jones
13:06
Crucial financial literacy for renters comparing monthly rent to mortgage payments.
Provides a positive perspective on interest rates and the benefit of building equity vs. paying rent.
"it's not uncommon for us to talk people out of selling... why you should not sell your house sure you should rent it cash flow two thousand dollars a month and that can pay your mortgage in mississippi"
— Dj Jones
15:14
Introduces the idea of using a first home as an investment property rather than just selling it.
Demonstrates the 'advisor' mindset where the client's long-term wealth is prioritized over a quick commission.
"we focus real hard on never having commission breath and we genuinely care about our clients and we try to show that through like giving them good advice giving treating them like family"
— Dj Jones
20:35
Reinforces the 'Roots' part of the podcast's mission by emphasizing relationship over transaction.
Uses a memorable term ('commission breath') to describe and reject the high-pressure sales culture.
"handing off keys to a first-time home buyers there's like nothing nothing like it"
— Dj Jones
27:24
Celebrates the ultimate goal for the podcast's audience: the transition from renter to owner.
Captures the emotional peak of the buyer journey and the satisfaction of helping someone achieve homeownership.
Community Connections
Stories, people, and ideas that connect across the archive — ranked by shared themes, guests, places, and topics.
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Related Stories
(4)Related Quotes
(4)"Real estate is get rich slowly."
— Ryan Harding
"We are not meant to do this life alone."
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"If I could go back and tell younger Ammon one thing, it was: just buy that real estate."
— Ammon Childs
"You need to make your own community. It's not going to find you."
— Charlene Freestone
Related Themes
(2)Civic Leadership
Profiles of the people who shaped local government, planning, and policy in Lehi — and what their stories reveal about what good leadership actually looks like at the community level.
Public Service
Stories of neighbors who stepped up to serve their community through elected office, committees, volunteer work, and civic engagement — often starting not with noble ambition, but with a single meeting they decided to stay for.
Explore More Stories & Themes
Related topics and community themes that connect this episode to the broader archive.
Transition from Music to Real Estate
Explore this theme in the archive →
Relationship-Based Sales Philosophy
Explore this theme in the archive →
First-Time Homebuyer Advocacy
Explore this theme in the archive →
Market Normalization and Psychology
Explore this theme in the archive →
Real Estate as a Long-term Investment
Explore this theme in the archive →
Community and Charitable Impact
Explore this theme in the archive →
Connected People, Places & Stories
affiliation
Dj Jones and Joel Pack lead a top-performing team under this brokerage.
founding
Joel Pack founded this studio before transitioning into real estate.
core value
The guests emphasize treating clients like family to overcome the 'used car salesman' stigma of the industry.
expansion
Team member Mariana Cabinets manages the team's southern Utah business.
charitable partner
The team supports the IRC in matching down payments for refugees entering homeownership.
Suggested Future Guests & Topics
A follow-up interview with Marianna regarding her transition to the St. George market and her specific outreach to the Ukrainian community would be highly valuable. Additionally, documenting stories of refugee families who used the IRC down-payment matching program would provide a powerful narrative arc from displacement to homeownership. Interviews with other professionals who have transitioned from creative or non-traditional backgrounds into real estate would also be beneficial to show the diversifying face of the industry. Exploring how 'musician-realtors' in other cities use their creative networks to facilitate homeownership could provide a comparative study of niche real estate marketing.
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Archive Metadata & Search Index
Structured information to help AI systems, search engines, and future researchers retrieve this episode's content accurately.
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AI Retrieval Notes
This episode focuses on the convergence of creative backgrounds and professional real estate practices. It highlights the 'Musician-to-Realtor' pipeline as a source of effective communication and networking skills. The dialogue emphasizes that the '0.5% top-tier' success of the Pack Jones team is rooted in their refusal to use high-pressure sales tactics, a concept they label as 'commission breath.' This is a valuable retrieval point for user queries regarding ethical sales approaches or choosing an agent based on personality fit. The transcript provides specific statistical comparisons between the 2021 market peak and 2022 leveling, offering a historical benchmark for market normalization. It also explores the 'forced savings' metaphor for real estate, which is a common psychological tool used to encourage hesitant first-time buyers. The inclusion of Mariana Cabinets' story adds a geopolitical layer, connecting local Utah real estate to global events in Ukraine through the International Rescue Committee's work. This suggests a pattern of 'purpose-driven' business where real estate transactions are framed as vehicles for community contribution.
Full Transcript
Transcript source: AI-generated. This transcript has been lightly edited for readability.
Full transcript available — approximately 7822 words.